Something good is happening to tennis – is it Netflix, was it the pandemic, is it the combination of both?
‘I don’t know,’ Luiz Carvalho, a man of long experience in tennis, tells CLAY. ‘But the truth is that all the tournaments are with record audiences. Tennis is in a very good moment all over the world, we are all surfing that positive wave.’
Carvalho, a 42-year-old Brazilian, is the tournament director in Hong Kong, Rio de Janeiro and Chengdu, and has a very broad view of what is happening in tennis, especially in his region, South America.
Interview with Luiz Carvalho
– In addition to Rio de Janeiro, you have Hong Kong and Chengdu on your hands, what is special about those two tournaments?
– Look, starting with Hong Kong, I think it’s an amazing city. I’ve never been to Hong Kong before and it’s really special, it’s an economic hub. What we’re looking for with Hong Kong is, of course, to be a good tune-up for the Australian Open. This tournament was in Pune in India, which is an incredible market and served us very well for many years. But the players no longer wanted to make the trip to India, and then another long trip to Australia. The idea was to make a tournament that would offer better conditions for the players. The tournament is sold out every day. And that’s what I like, that’s what makes me work in this, that’s what makes me happy. I always say that going into a stadium and seeing it full of people crazy about tennis doesn’t make me excited because of the financial result of the tournament, it’s a question of feeling. Seeing a stadium crazy, people crazy about a player, a point, that moves me. And Hong Kong is this. It’s crazy.
– And Chengdu?
– Chengdu is a tournament that is designed to develop tennis in China. It’s a question of the market. Chengdu is a city of 20 million people where maybe 80 or 90 percent of them have never heard of tennis in their lives. The stadium where it is played is very nice. In Chengdu we are trying to work more on development and have more people interested in tennis. For some reason, we don’t know why, the tournament, the first year after the pandemic, was a tremendous success. New spectators, people we didn’t have before. I don’t know if it was the pandemic that brought them or if it’s the movement that’s happening with all the tournaments in the world of more tennis audiences. Formula 1 had Netflix, which exploded the interest. Tennis I don’t know if it’s a combination of Netflix and COVID, but the truth is that all the tournaments have record audiences. Miami record crowds, Madrid record crowds, Rome record crowds, Rio record crowds. Surely there will be other tournaments with record crowds, but we don’t know exactly why because no one has done any research. Tennis is in a very good moment all over the world, we are all surfing this positive wave.
– You just talked about India, why doesn’t India have an ATP tournament at the moment, being the most populous country in the world?
– At IMG we had a tournament in Chennai, then we went to Pune. The issue is that the players no longer supported the tournament. The draw was very, very weak, because the players prefer to go straight to tournaments in Australia, which have great conditions, adapt early to the time zone. It’s not a problem of financial support or stadium, or things like that, because they have it, but it’s that the date that was in the first week of the year no longer had the support of the players.
– What solution do you have, some other date?
– Some other date maybe in the future. It’s a very interesting market, and, as you said, the most populous country in the world. They have a world number one doubles player, they are Hollywood stars, well, Bollywood stars! You have to look for an ideal date.
– Golf is growing financially, there is an alliance between the PGA and the Saudis, how do you see tennis, does it have to make a financial leap?
– The most important thing, and it is being done, is that we stick together and work together. For many years it worked what we call the G7, which is the four Grand Slams, the ATO, the WTA and the ITF. It didn’t work very well at all. Now I think the tournaments, the ATP and the WTA are getting closer together, there are good talks with the Grand Slams to try to make us stronger as a sport and not each one on its own.
– What is this project we hear about, Tennis Ventures?
– Ventures is quite an interesting project: for the first time the ATP and the WTA are in something together. The presidents, Steve (Simon) and Andrea (Gaudenzi), are in direct contact to try to get the commercial rights, TV, betting, streaming, sponsorship, everything that is commercial, under one company. Obviously I can’t go into too much detail, but what was done in the first phase was very productive.
– The idea that the Saudis could buy tennis, is that true?
– That’s not true, the Saudis don’t buy anything. What the Saudis want is a Masters 1000, that’s what it’s about, not buying the tennis tour. So there are three things: Tennis Ventures, the Saudi Masters 1000…
– And Premier Tour. What is Premier Tour?
– Another very interesting project, but I can’t say more than that.
– Rio de Janeiro is the most important tournament in South America. What else can be done in Rio that hasn’t already been done?
– There is a lot to do! It’s a very beautiful story in Rio, which played its tenth edition this year. And it’s amazing how we’ve been able to build something so special. In 2014, in the first edition, it was very hard to sell tickets, it was very hard to convince sponsors that it would be an amazing event. We didn’t have the culture of tennis tournaments. Today tickets sell out in two hours and people love tennis. For Rio, for the tournament, for having such good players all these years and bringing the sport closer. We are people who have pretty big ambitions in Rio. We always talk a lot about, not only growing as a tournament, but how to make it an even more complete tournament with better services, with a better experience.
– A Master 1000?
– It’s difficult to have a Master 1000. The truth is that the way things are now in the ATP, it’s pretty clear that you have to buy an existing Masters 1000 to make the change. But obviously I think South America deserves a Masters 1000. And I’m not just talking about Rio, I think because of its history in tennis. And it’s a pity that this issue has never been discussed. You have one Masters 1000 per continent and South America, which has an incredible tennis history, doesn’t have this opportunity. And the truth is that we are always seen as a poor continent, that has no infrastructure, that has no capacity. And I think this is starting to change. Because South America has an audience and has passion, right? It has the best tennis fans, all the players who play our tournaments always say how much fun it is to play in Buenos Aires, in Rio, how the public is capable of changing everything in a match. South America always has one, two, three top 20 players. Every year. It’s incredible that the possibility of having a South American Masters 1000 has never been discussed.
– And why do you think the ATP doesn’t discuss it? Also in Buenos Aires there is a lot of talk about this, about the frustrated ambition of being an ATP 500.
– It all ends up in an economic issue, I think, and it’s a pity that Buenos Aires didn’t get the upgrade, because it would be incredible to have two 500 in South America. It would help us a lot with player management. I know Martin Jaite and Kristoff Puelinckx from Tennium in Buenos Aires very well, and also Cata Fillol in Santiago. We have to unite to make the tour stronger.
– Is the fact that the Argentine city of Cordoba lost its ATP 250 to Mallorca a clear sign of what the ATP wants?
– That’s a tough one. We can’t blame the ATP for the departure of Cordoba, because in the end it’s the promoter of Cordoba who decided to take the tournament elsewhere. All they did was ask the ATP for permission to change the venue. It’s not that the ATP told them to go there, it was much more the promoter who made that decision. But yes, we have to question very much the ATP, the plans with South America, because now with the upgrades from 2025 to Dallas and Doha, it is clear that the players have even more options to play in February than in South America. It will be even more difficult to convince players to play our tournaments. We, in South America, have this notion that we are clay-court players, and it is true that there is a tradition, but our players play well on any surface. It’s not like it was 20 years ago, with Gaudio and Coria who only won their points on clay, although Nalbandian played better on hard courts. And the courts, clay and hard, are much more similar today. Even the grass is similar.
– Everything is much more similar than before. Can you imagine a South American tour on hard court? Could that be a good thing?
– I think it’s an idea we have to explore, because it would help us a lot with the players. The way the South American tour in February is set up, we have very few options to get stars, people who want to make a switch from hard court in Doha to South American clay and then back to cement in Indian Wells and Miami. The players are becoming more and more professional, they know that the change of surface hurts them, not only technically, but physically. And we know that. Playing on cement would give us the possibility to compete on equal terms with the other tournaments in February. What happens to us in Buenos Aires, Rio and Santiago is that when we look at the list of the top twenty in the world, we know that ten of those twenty would not even think of playing on clay in February. They wouldn’t dream of it. Djokovic is not coming, Tsitsipas is not coming. They don’t want to make the switch, they want to stay on hard, they play well on hard. It’s not that they don’t know how to play on clay, they play well, but they prefer not to make the switch. So, we pay a higher price to be able to bring players, to convince them to come. And they also leave us with less options. Because when you look, you make a comparison of the player pool in Rotterdam and Dubai, you understand (what happens in) Acapulco.
– Acapulco, which moved from clay to hard court.
– Acapulco and Rio are very similar tournaments in terms of climate, audience. And Acapulco has five top tens, maybe four top tens. And six or seven top twenty. In Rio de Janeiro you don’t get that. And it’s not a problem of investment. We have the budget to invest in the players, who I understand are a fundamental part. But the players don’t even listen to us, the agents don’t even talk to us. It is unfair. And this is an issue that we have to think about, because South America is a continent where there is a great hunger for tennis. That hunger, in the past, was in Asia, in China. Now it’s not so popular in China, it’s not that tennis is exploding in China. So, South America is in a very good moment. It’s a pity that the ATP doesn’t let us change the surface, something that could take our tournaments to another level.
– The ATP doesn’t let you change surfaces?
– The process is simple, and I am very fair with the ATP. We have the right to ask for a change of surface. And this change of surface goes through the ATP board, which has representatives of tournaments and players. The players are very much against losing more tournaments on clay. I understand the reason, but the same players who fight against it don’t play on clay in South America. It’s like saying, I don’t want to lose the tournament on clay, but I don’t want to play it either.
– Djokovic is against it, but he will never play in Rio or Buenos Aires?
– I’m not going to name names of players who say no and don’t play either, but it’s unfair.
– At the same time, the ATP and the players will think that tennis is also played on clay and will want to keep some tournaments. How do you solve this?
– The counter argument I propose is why do our tournaments have to pay the price?
– And could there be a solution, could the ATP force top players to play on clay?
– I don’t think the ATP can force anyone, but for me it’s clear that more and more the clay season is the one that goes from Monte Carlo to Roland Garros, that’s where all the top players play, that’s where you see the Barcelona draw is very good. Then the clay seasons in South America, the European clay season in July are a bit more difficult. And even so, July has an advantage over South America, and that is that 70 or 80 percent of the top 20 players are European. So in July, tournaments like Kitzbühel and Hamburg still get players easily. In February, when you come from a long tour in Australia, going to South America is more difficult.
– There is another phenomenon, that of players who arrive at the end of their career at South American tournaments and regret not having done it earlier.
– Yes, it was the case of Stan Wawrinka, who had a great time. I was with Rio and, despite not having won many matches, he told me that everything was incredible and that he wanted to come back. Or Andy Murray, who was impressed by the crowd. The message is simple: if we could play on hard court, something that would not be a problem for Latin American players, we would have a much better draw and the tournaments would grow even more.
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